31-03-2007 Afterhours.FM Torrent Server *closed as of Dec 1st 08*

[The Cat Lady]

call it whatever you like, it's not through magic or a mountain crystal thru which you receive your sets - which is data, which is distributed via the internet and by clicking that download link you agree to at least the leeching part (I do hope you did at least some seeding too...) which ultimately makes you a link in that free "distribution" chain of copyrighted products.
Contrary to commercial distribution where a lil truck brings fresh bagels into the local seveneleven and you pay for the priviledge to have some for breakfast.
Except for when some bagel lover or upstarting baker has hijacked that truck and chucks the bagels out of the back or leaves flyers with the address where he stores them for everyone to pick up.

Edit:
I'm still with DI (premium) btw, and it's a subject you should better leave alone, for the sake of the people involved and the consequences it had. Let go.
Also both stations are not comparable.
One is a full range provider, the other one has carved out very successfully a niche for itself.
Both deserve respect and both should co-exist in support for each other and foremost to the scene as such. Also I think this is what Dan aims for and getting rid of the torrents is a big step towards the stations credibility.

I seeded. But what I mostly did was to "send money", just like I do for AH in general. I spend a lot more here than I ever did at DI.

And no. I will never let go of what happened to me there. I was murdered. Have you ever been murdered online publicly? In front of your friends? You cannot IMAGINE the feeling. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. I'd been there for a long time. It was my online home. What happened was unconscionable and unforgivable.

I will always credit DI and the people I met there for literally saving my life. I will also never forgive Ari for taking it again in such a public, demeaning manner. No warning, no temporary ban, not even a word to me about why he did it. Just instant and permanent death. I cried for several days. I missed my friends. I lost that which had saved me.

I have a new home now. I don't want it to go the way DI did. I want AH to stay as far from DI as possible. I hope to God that DI isn't the reason. I would gladly accept ANYTHING else than that. And support it, too. Openly and loudly. Anything but that. Anything other than Ari dictating his will here.

 

[The Cat Lady]

just to clear this point up, the torrent site is and has always been completely seperate from the radio part of AH, technically, administratively and also financially. donations to torrents site only went to the torrents site and not to main AH (the radio), and vice versa.

Yes, I was aware of that fact. It's why I monetarily supported both. :grinning:

 

[The Cat Lady]

I don't quote you because i think it fits me, I'm promoting myself (see sig) over a host with direct downloads, so they're definately not a bad thing nor is my choice of distributing the better one - same effect - and the industry (not just competing sites) are mostly happy with you doing it for promotion (of some tracks, of yourself, of the genre).
but if you are an acclaimed radio station "serving" the community and relying on donations and subscriptions to keep afloat (comparision with price for a track or royalties for airplay to the artist here maybe??) and airing a program with follow up offering for the listener to keep is a bit contra-productive, partly also my view, and yes I do keep the odd copy of a Blockbuster rented movie but i buy all my software. Some are small developers and I'm happy to support the product thru donation or purchase, same as with AH.
It's just the way the system works and unfortunately one has to play ball otherwise some legal departments of labels or artists can have a field day with you.

I don't have "copies" of anything that I did not pay for. And usually I don't make copies of the things that I DO pay for. Laziness on my part. Periodically, I regret that oversight when I have to buy something again. Ha!

 

[90degrees]

I don't have "copies" of anything that I did not pay for. And usually I don't make copies of the things that I DO pay for. Laziness on my part. Periodically, I regret that oversight when I have to buy something again. Ha!

it's just the whole (il-)legal aspect of the stigmatised torrents.
Man, they are going after kids sharing video games these days.
The money for the torrents was prolly used to keep them running, I don't know if any money would have gone to royalty collecting companies, also tricky to filter out the sets and allocate portions to labels/artists.
Bad tongues could say that some made profit from those torrents.
That's where it can become a civil court matter.
So what's the preference, AH w/o torrents or worst case scenario no AH at all, Dan paying for bandwidth or paying for lawyers?

 

[The Cat Lady]

Oh btw. If labels and artists ARE the only reason, then I'll cease and desist. I'll accept the loss of a very valuable service, and shut the f up. I will also publicly apologize for throwing a hissy fit over it.

 

[t4e]

TCL, you know i've been there the day it happened...while i understand your reasons for being so upset about that day and the whole chain of events, i clearly remember the day we all got here together on AH, we agreed to let the past be past and never talk about it again, nor mention any names ever.

however, it saddens me that a thing such the torrents being discontinued can make you relive all that....and even more so compare, or just think that AH is, or will become anything like DI....and to even mention Dan's name in the same context as Ari's.

before being so upset about the torrents, take a step back and think at all the great things that have been given to us in the past year that we've been here, there are also more improvements to come, which take time, effort and money, and all in the effort to make AH the best there is and the users happy.

there is absolutely no need to be so negative about torrents not being available...as dfx said, this was not a decision taken in haste nor lightly, and it was not a decision that the members would have had any input on, as was the case in other situations where Dan has always asked the members opinion...this was all done for the wellness and future of this station.


so is my turn now to ask a favor...please lets leave DI and Ari out of any discussions here.

 

[The Cat Lady]

it's just the whole (il-)legal aspect of the stigmatised torrents.
Man, they are going after kids sharing video games these days.
The money for the torrents was prolly used to keep them running, I don't know if any money would have gone to royalty collecting companies, also tricky to filter out the sets and allocate portions to labels/artists.
Bad tongues could say that some made profit from those torrents.
That's where it can become a civil court matter.
So what's the preference, AH w/o torrents or worst case scenario no AH at all, Dan paying for bandwidth or paying for lawyers?

Eeeewwww! No AH at all?!?!? God forbid! I've been homeless before, both literally and figuratively (online). I was homeless literally much longer than I was homeless figuratively, for 5 months. Didn't like it at all! It sucked! Anything is better than that! :no:

Yeah. I hate lawyers, too.

 

[The Cat Lady]

TCL, you know i've been there the day it happened...while i understand your reasons for being so upset about that day and the whole chain of events, i clearly remember the day we all got here together on AH, we agreed to let the past be past and never talk about it again, nor mention any names ever.

however, it saddens me that a thing such the torrents being discontinued can make you relive all that....and even more so compare, or just think that AH is, or will become anything like DI....and to even mention Dan's name in the same context as Ari's.

before being so upset about the torrents, take a step back and think at all the great things that have been given to us in the past year that we've been here, there are also more improvements to come, which take time, effort and money, and all in the effort to make AH the best there is and the users happy.

there is absolutely no need to be so negative about torrents not being available...as dfx said, this was not a decision taken in haste nor lightly, and it was not a decision that the members would have had any input on, as was the case in other situations where Dan has always asked the members opinion...this was all done for the wellness and future of this station.


so is my turn now to ask a favor...please lets leave DI and Ari out of any discussions here.

You are my friend and I respect you. Okay. I'll stop.

 

[dfx]

Oh btw. If labels and artists ARE the only reason, then I'll cease and desist. I'll accept the loss of a very valuable service, and shut the f up. I will also publicly apologize for throwing a hissy fit over it.

yes they are, directly and indirectly. directly because some will refuse to give us shows/sets because of the torrents, indirectly because some other sites will refuse to cooperate with us, because they're afraid of penalties towards them from artists/labels because of the torrents.

thanks for your understanding

as for explanation, you give part of the reason yourself:

I don't have "copies" of anything that I did not pay for. And usually I don't make copies of the things that I DO pay for.

generally, US citizens aren't even allowed to make copies of stuff, even if they paid for it. this is quite different in (parts of?) europe and also in canada.

as for torrent downloads, AH isn't a record label and thus isn't able to sell track compilations (which is what a DJ set is) to anyone. us being a radio makes matters slightly different, but as for US people, it's a no-no to download the sets. and since a (large?) part of the whole business is US based, that's where the problems come from.

 

[90degrees]

same in UK, no back-up allowed, even of paid for material.
yet backward/reverse engineering is absolutely legit, what a logic.

 

[dan]

/me steps in the room, sits in the corner and raises his hand... Ill say something

I do understand all of your concerns here, I really do... and you don't know how much I been thinking about this whole ordeal in last few day's. The decision of torrents going down has nothing to do with any other stations or any other station owner, but it's a decision that was made for us AH.FM to grow and reach full potential.

Some will argue because they want to download, I understand you... however please understand me and AH.FM that whatever decisions that have been made since June 2006 (day 1 of AH) has been really thought over for best possible outcome. As t4e said, we work really hard for this station to be at it's BEST! I mean were the youngest station with a community that no other radio has.

It was my dream to have family based "home" in the Trance world & I thank you all for making it true and being part of it.

 

[JayCan]

at least i need to say something

I am here cause i followed the trail of Ori

As i came here i never expect what i find here...family


in that meaning i just want to say Thank you AH.FM and Dan....
...any extra given service like torrents was a present from Dan and AH. and now that present is no longer available...but Dan makes another present to dont let anyone down...he makes Ah bigger an better every day with help of the staff and the Djs and Producers....so i see no need to give a cry about a present that we used the last times cause we get a bigger and better present instead...we are part of a wonderfull happening...the happening that Ah grows and we are involved and part of it....i cant imagine a better present for that family

cheers

 

[Tarek]

I've probably no place in this discussion right now..but does DI=Dance Industries?

I also realized one thing when I read page 7 and 8. You guys are much more than just radio website hosts. This seems to be much more than just a "community". It also seems that some people have been through rough times with this and another website. You guys are so close knit.

For some reason I feel right at home all of the sudden. I guess reading these pages kinda..reminded me of past experiences..

Strange phenomenon..like an indirect bond of some sort..

I'm kinda disappointed about the loss of torrents sites. But whatever. Make do with what you have has always been a philosophy I follow. Afterhours will most probably live on.

After all, and all DJs know this: You cannot please everyone.

 

[dfx]

I've probably no place in this discussion right now..but does DI=Dance Industries?

DI = deserted island dot FM

 

[Tarek]

Oh I see what DI is now..hm

 

[the_drewster19]

personally, here in Canada there isn't much we can do when concerning the shows and sets here on ah.fm. To me the torrent site going down is a huge disappointment, but I do understand the reasons as to why it must be taken off. Also, the main benefit for me and the torrent site was that I would listen to the live radio hear something I really liked and would download everything I could by that dj. With that being said, shout out to Robbie Schwan and Marcus Schossow for making the best sh•t I've ever heard. Thank you. And to Dan and all of you at afterhours thank you for making something that was meant for me. This site has actually introduced me to my girlfriend and for that I am truly thankful for. It is true that the torrent site going down is sad but its all for the best. I will still listen and I plan to donate. It will never be the same here on afterhours but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Thank you afterhours.

 

[gasgano]

As a fulltime user of AH.fm Torrents, I'm sad it will be shut down. However, as dfx said:

... unfortunately it's hampering us in extending our reach. certain people think that downloadable sets are universally a bad thing, and all attempts at trying to convince them of the opposite have failed.

AH.fm might be a large radio station, it still depends on dj's and labels. If they don't want to have anything to do with filesharing (like most of the music industry), then the torrents will have to go. I support your decision, Dan, and I'll tune in live from now on.

Oh, and thanks Kowy, dfx and all the others who maintained the torrents!:grinning:

 

[Lazarus]

Given my involvement with a label I can see both sides of the argument on this. James who owns Defcon had a remix commissioned a few years ago by someone I'll not name, and found the remix on file-sharing sites before he'd even had it back from the remixer! Even now, though our last release went out on promo to about 80 DJs, I can google it and find it for free in several different places and it does make you wonder why you bother. Every one of these sites that lists the number of downloads they've had so far outstrips our actual sales by at least thirty to one.

However, I never got into this industry for the money, I did it to make music, so it doesn't bother me too much and I accept it as an inevitable fact of life now. James likewise is a true music enthusiast far more than he'll ever be a businessman, and I'm eternally thankful that there are so many other like-minded producers out there.

But the sad truth is that there is no chance of a career in this now without a lot of hard work and effort and dedication on the business-side of things, and when you only do label work part-time there's no chance of that really. P2P has taken away about 98-99% of our potential business so I can certainly see why some labels will do everything they can to ensure their continuation.

My personal view though is that I have two choices - I can either make music that no-one hears and make no money from it, or I can make music that some people hear and make no money from it. But as I say, that's an easy choice for me because it's not my livelihood. I don't mind anyone downloading my sets which is why every set I've ever done over the past 5 years is available (everyone can thank Stella for this!) but I can totally understand why others have issues with people downloading theirs'.

I think it comes down to the idea that music is a naturally-given right for everyone. I think it is. But then, I also think that food and shelter are also naturally-given rights as well, and everyone pays for those without a second thought...

AH is in a tricky position though, because they have to find a compromise for the people like me who don't mind and the others who do, and I fully support the decision to remove the torrents as a result. Because those of us who don't mind will still make our sets available, and those who do mind will continue to support our station and make it great!

 

[Margoss]

P2P has taken away about 98-99% of our potential business ...

i'm not so sure about that, if it wasn't for the internet, online radios and p2p networks, i wouldn't even know about this music today, as it is totally unaccessible where i live. so if you look at it from another point of view, you could even argue that p2p has increased your sales, as it brought more people to the music...? (very controversial statement, i know )

 

[KasieX]

Based on what I read here, closing the torrent server seems overall to be a wise decision for the future of AH.FM.

However, I believe that a big part of Cat Lady grief is due to the apparently unilateral and “anti-community” way the decision was taken.

I understand that you can't involve the community in all decisions all the time, and that some if not most decisions just need to be taken regardless of the opinion of members. I understand (and I'm sure Cat Lady understand) that this is a dictatorship and that it could not realistically work any other way. But because of the importance of its community for AH survival, it must be a benevolent dictatorship. And as such, the minimum AH must do is explain, listen and communicate.

My opinion is that the AH team generally do a very good job in that matter and that's probably a major reason for AH apparent success. Dan seems to be a model of benevolent dictator.

But in this particular case, because of the importance of the subject, it should have been more than a one line post announcement in an existing thread. 10 days and 75 posts later, the explaining and listening is done and everybody, if not happy, at least understand. But it could nonetheless have left a bitter sentiment of brutal dictatorship in some people mind.

I really hope my comment to be seen as a constructive one. I just want to say, try not to neglect explaining and listening to your community. It is a key, if not the most important key, to the success of a community oriented business.

That being said, I really think that you are doing overall a remarkable job and that I'm more and more addicted to AH.FM. I only wish the best for AH.FM future.